Recently, a lot is said about the treatments in Poland "in vitro". Catholic politician, Jaroslaw Gowin, is a sponsor of the law on these matters, and even bishops in Poland recently posted a letter to the faithful explaining the Church's teaching on in vitro fertilization. The reaction to this was indignant voices work, that "bishops are mixed into politics." He spoke about the 30th Paul Wdówik in December his radio on Radio Jozef. You can also find the indignant voices of Internet users who have written on various blogs and forums feedback that "we will not dictate the conditions of the clergy. Let the word of God will take wearing and not discuss something that I have no idea. I still want to bring happiness to people, which is a child "or" No I understand who disturb "extra" children who, without in vitro would never be born. God loves all children, including those born through in vitro or from compounds such as pozamałżeńskch. It's just a person arrogates the right to represent God on earth they want to control us, define us of different ways we have to be born, live and die. "
guess is that these are the voices of people claiming to be Catholics. They demonstrate clearly that a very Many Catholics do not understand what the evil of such treatment. And as they do not understand, it's no wonder that the revolt. Therefore I would like some help to understand why such a procedure is morally wrong.
course, I encourage you to read carefully the letter of the bishops . I also encourage you to read the instruction "Dignitas personae" on some bioethical issues "published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, where he also (Part II, point 14) is explained Why IVF is unethical. You can also listen to interview with Professor Andrew sixes, in ethics from Kulu, where we can find answers to questions related to in vitro fertilization.
And I myself a couple of days I speak on this topic on the forum "Catholic" and below is some of my statements in that discussion:
| Swan wrote: |
| ; |
| I know that none of the opponents of in vitro did not admit but in fact an attack on this method of fertilization is related to the necessity of some consequence. Since KK stubbornly maniac talks, the life begins at conception, it is hard now for in vitro on the go. |
fact that life begins at conception talks "with the stubbornness of a maniac" science, not the Church.
| Quote: |
| And for KK no matter how much people suffer is not likely to have children in the classical way, KK importance for the fertilized cell. |
course, that the suffering person is important for the Church. But it's difficult, that the Church taught that murder is a moral limit of one man just because he is no dumb ly and to satisfy the whim, or even to comfort the pain of another man, who has more clout and louder cries for their rights.
| Quote: |
| This is important because earlier KK announced that the fertilized cell is human. This is bullshit, but KK's Chinese god is unable to admit it. |
Once again I repeat: This is not the Church, but science. How something is alive, growing, growing and has human DNA, it'll excuse me, but with a scientific, not theological definition of a human being. If anything, it was speculated theologians sometimes when a person receives from God, an immortal soul. It's science, not the Church. dispelled any doubts. But even if one he was not sure if this life is no longer a soul or not, the Church, and so taught that it is immoral to kill that life. Here is an excerpt of a document known as the "Didache" and originating from the first century:
II 1 And here's further recommendations of science: 2 Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, do not seduce young boys do not grow some debauchery, do not steal, do not be concerned with magic or sorcery, not slay the child by abortion nor seasoned them with death after birth not covet thy property neighbor. 3. Do not swear falsely, shall not bear false witness, do not curse, do not remember trauma. 4. Do not be insincere in thought or word, because dishonesty is a trap of death. 5. Let your words are neither false nor vain, but the corresponding actions. 6. Do not be greedy or rapacious, or hypocritical, or wicked, or conceited. Do not weave the designs of evil against thy neighbor. 7. Have no hate no man, but exhort one, pray for them, and yet other than my own love life.
And this is obvious, because even If you are not sure, you still do not have the right "to kill a precaution."
| Quote: |
| KK 300 years admitted to the heliocentric. |
What a total nonsense. It is the Church laid the foundations of modern science. It is due to the fact that the Bible teaches that God has arranged everything according to measure and number, and weight (11.20 Wis b) at all was possible the development of science. It is no coincidence that the moon is a few dozen craters named after Jesuit scientists. Rather than try to repeat the nonsense about the history. How do you know English, I would recommend, for example, that series of programs: The Catholic Church: Builder of Civilization And the science, acknowledged that the Earth is the center of the universe, until they discovered otherwise. The Church has never taught or so, or otherwise, because it is not the role of the Church teach astronomy.
| Zygmunt wrote: |
| situations are different and the family, which I know has benefited from in vitro and somehow does not fit herein morally shameful for the situation in which they find themselves, and already when I look at those very pretty lowly twarzczki it seems to me that gratitude to God should flow from the heart for it, the learned men gave us, who can help solve the problem of childlessness. |
And because you can not see all the faces of those children who were murdered in the course (or consequences) IVF, you have a heart do not hurt? Or so cheap emotions rather than to be used zacząłbyś Brain? Try it, it really does not hurt.
| Quote: |
| I just can not comprehend the position of the Church, as Nicolaus Copernicus was not able to comprehend the then prevailing ignorance of the higher clergy swerach when he worked on the work of "On the Revolutions of Swer blue." |
Question: Czyto true that the average worker in the CCCP can not afford to buy Moskvich? Answer: And with you negro fight.
Murzynówu we choose the last president to announce Messiahs even having to save America. But the logic of this answer from the old joke is that, like yours argument. First of all, the Church is just as fallible in matters of science like me and you. It is in matters of morality and faith is the gift of infallibility. A case in vitro relates to morality, not science. The church does not comment whether this is possible, effective etc. The church says it's immoral. And as for "ciemnoty clergy" is just such a generalization is as much sense as saying that Poles are brudasy and drunks. Some for sure, but many can not imagine leaving home without taking a shower. Many also do not drink at all. And so was the clergy. The most outstanding researchers in the history of science come from the clergy, though they were, and others. Only that it has nothing to do with this case.
| Thorwald wrote: | ||
It's just that the Church says about the man. Science life. |
But that study determined that the human embryo is a human. The Church does not forbid the killing of life. Are vegetarians, and others possessed, not the bishops and the Vatican. Just as science finds that life is a man, she says that we have no right to interfere.
| Quote: |
| And for accuracy - it starts with "new life" because he lives and the egg and sperm. Cells uterus also live. Even if they are cancer cells, it is this force. The dispute revolves around the dilemma of whether a new life - the zygote - a man or a man is something more. Here there is no agreement or clarity. |
As for the egg and sperm, it happens to be consensus and clarity. This is not even human. Also, a cancer cell is not a man. Delete it, killing not only kills a human being, but on the contrary, saves his life.
Besides ... if it is not clear to what? It is in any case, let us kill? What is the logic? As it is clear that we absolutely must not be killed, because we can kill a human. Nobody blows up the old building, where there is no certainty that no one is there, right?
| GTO wrote: | ||
I have not seen that he lied to the bishop ...
And apparently Satan is able to lie ... |
And what kind of a lie is? Late opting for a child is certainly cause difficulties in becoming pregnant. "Contraceptive culture" it also increased number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions, as a consequence, the subsequent problemówz pregnancy. Bishop may have used a mental shortcut, but certainly not lying. I recommend Humanae Vitae.
| Thorwald wrote: | ||
This is a contractual limit. For us believers, this boundary is the moment (actually a time), when the body is replaced by the divine spirit and soul. But when this occurs? not known. probably not the same conception, but a bit later. At least logic would indicate. |
My statement from another thread, but it just fits like a glove here:
"Even if we accept your reasoning to be correct, This still does not know at which point the man becomes a man. " And if we do not know if we do not have 100% certainty, we must not kill this man. So, how immoral is by shooting in the woods on a hunt in the direction of moving the bushes, not necessarily because there is another hunter, but it may be, for example deer, how immoral is passing the mantle lying on the road, on which something is located (although we do not know whether a drunkard, or a sack of potatoes), so it is immoral to kill a living organism, if we do not know 100% whether it is or is not man.
tell. that you know for 100%? Well, the hunt is also "knew" it was a deer. But I killed a man. The truth is that you can not be sure. The criterion of "having consciousness" is nonsense. Consciousness does not have a child in the 9th month of pregnancy. None of us remember our birth. So recognize that children who are allowed to kill nine months? Until recently, such killings were legal and used in practice in the U.S. and as the messiah takes office Burak it again becomes legal. I find it hard to refuse logic, since they determine the definition of "human rights".
worldwide animal protection law punished the same way for the destruction of the eggs of protected species of birds, or turtles, as for the killing of an adult. I do not understand why suddenly when it comes to a man you can not see that killing is the killing of a zygote as human. As the organism is alive, and how has 46 chromosomes, as is the DNA of the species homo sapiens, it is a man, anyone else. This is just a fact. And the facts should take note, and not discuss them.
Each of us knows, "Department of Pascal" in relation to faith. You can also write with regard to abortion. Also we have four possibilities: Either at the time of conception is a human or not. And we recognize it either, we know it or not. And if this is a man, and we know it, killing it is murder. When this is not a man, but we think it is, kill him also from a moral point of view, is murder. It's just as immoral as a shot into the bushes on the hunt, when we know that there is another hunter. Even as the de facto there was only a deer. The third situation: When life is a man, and we "know" it is not, it unintentionally killing a man. Manslaughter, however, it is also immoral and punishable by law. And only if the resulting new life was not a man, and we would know with certainty that this is so, we would have a moral right to kill him. "
problem of course lies in the fact that this certainty, we can not have, so It is never moral to kill the unborn life.
| Thorwald wrote: | ||
mickin
"Later" is a term so vague that it could equally say that "we do not know" or if you prefer to "just do not know." Certainly, we can not say that before conception, because there is at what join. Is at conception or later, it is a matter open. Does anyone know for 100% sure answer? Doubtful. |
Church teaches us that at the moment of conception, so where's the doubt? The fact that theologians, even those outstanding as sw. Thomas speculated about this, but now is not speculation. Anyway, just a little meditate on the Incarnation of our Lord. It was certainly God before conception and has never ceased to be. So at the moment of conception, when he had the body, what was it? God incarnate, but is not a man? Nonsense. Jesus had at the time of the Incarnation, the moment of conception for the human soul.
Catechism:
Heresy 466 nestoriańska saw in Christ the human person connected to the divine Person of the Son of God. Contrary to this heresy, St.. Cyril of Alexandria and the third ecumenical council in Ephesus in 431, confessed that "the Word, uniting the hypostatic union with the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man." Christ's humanity has no other subject than the divine Person of the Son of God, who took them and made his from his conception . On this basis, the Council of Ephesus proclaimed in 431 that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb: "(This is called her the Mother of God), not because the Word of God took from her to her divine nature but because it was born from her sacred body endowed with a rational soul, which united hipostatycznie word is born, it is said, according to the flesh. "
1711 The human person, endowed with soul, spirit, intellect and will, from the moment of conception is returned to God and destined for eternal happiness. Reaches its perfection in "seeking and loving what is true and good"
2270 Human life from conception must be respected and protected absolutely. From the first moment of its existence, human beings should be granted rights of persons, among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life. Since 2274
embryo should be regarded as a person from the moment of conception, should be defended in its integrity, cared for him and treat him as far as possible like any other human being.
| Quote: |
| Some assume that the "moment" of conception. But the conception is not a "moment", but kilkuetapowy process, ongoing, in the language of physics, for t greater than zero. are also cases when we can not say that at conception. example, identical twins. Is the zygote would have two souls in one body (that's a state of possession) or dzieliłaby soul in two, like a cell? |
It is rather simple. Before the division of the two organisms, we have one man. And at the time the twin, God gives him a soul. Where is the problem? Also consider where the "millisecond" conception, the child receives a soul, reminiscent of the considerations like "how many devils would fit in the needle." We we do not need to know at what time human existence. It is God who needs to know (and knows). We need scientific information that is made in the time of the merger of sperm with egg cell, and whether it is a few thousandths of a second sooner or later, it does not matter.
| Quote: |
| idea that the soul enters the body a little later, when it is no longer any certainty that this body will give her a chance to develop is by no means rare and occurs in different ; distributions religions and philosophies. |
In other religions and philosophies, it is not at all uncommon view that the gods live on Olympus.
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| I was thinking of some elementary logic. Is a God who is Love, would create human beings so that 50% of them annihilate in a moment. And yet, statistically every 2 zygote dies before implantation. Can be wrong? Is not that contradict some of the basic logic of love? Moreover, even not the logic of love, logic, ordinary activities. What is your opinion on this? |
my opinion, the "logic of love" tells us that these are human beings. Because even when they are old, it is always better to exist than not exist. And it is always better to exist as a person rather than as inanimate matter, without free will and immortal souls. And God always chooses what is best. I do not know what to do with such people, but we can trust God's mercy. Surely they are not "damned" since they have not committed any sin, so surely they Bogi up something wonderful (although not necessarily those sky that awaits us.)
| Quote: | ||
Hiobie,
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can certainly philosophically, or legally differentiate between "person" human understanding of the biological species homo sapiens. And so, often at times in history. Denied the status of "persons" blacks and women in the U.S., Jews and Gypsies in Nazi Germany, cripples in Sparta, etc. And in the same manner are denied the status of embryos. But these are political, philosophical, ideological, but not scientific. Science teaches us clearly that the zygote is Homo sapiens. And this new individual, and not "part of the abdomen of the mother.
| Quote: |
| God says, "You shall not kill", "not murder." Are you talking to not only kill a man? This commandment is a more general principle relating to the mindless, malicious destruction of life. Senseless, because the destruction of life (and his rebirth as well) belong to the order of the world, are commonplace. |
're wrong. Commandment, which indeed is "Do not murder" prohibits precisely this: the murder of man. The word used there may not involve killing animals. Even in the Polish "murder" is the killing of a man, not fleas, mice, or even a dog or a dolphin. The definition of the SJP OWN:
* murder "a crime involving the deliberate deprivation of human life "
fifth commandment, the Hebrew לא תרצח: ס or Greek ου μοιχευσεις cerebral wi: 'You shall not murder. " God Himself in the Bible requires both kill the animals, and death to punish people, so it is clear that this commandment speaks only of the murder of innocent people.
| Quote: |
| Today it is known that a person can arise not only from the zygote. are called. totipotent cells. Perhaps even all the cells have the ability to play the parent body. Is this cell is also a man? |
Until these are potential opportunities, it certainly is not. But if at some point starts to separate, a new human life, then we are dealing with a new person. I do not ask me a clear answer on this question. Not everything is black and white and separated by a clear dividing line. But, as I mentioned earlier, as we do not know for sure, we must not "kill a precaution." It is always immoral.
| Quote: |
| removal of the cancer cell saves the life of man, but destroys the life of the cell. cancerous cell, like every living cell also has its own rudimentary awareness (awareness of itself.) The best proof that "no wants to play in the orchestra ", which is the body and chooses autonomy. Her self-consciousness is comparable with the awareness of the zygote. |
But awareness is not here nor there. I had in my life a few cases where I had no consciousness. Or is schlałem like a pig, or fainted. And what? Ceased to be human? (Probably as a schlałem, in a sense, yes, but only in a sense. I still like I killed someone. Is' kill bastard, but would be responsible for man ").
Zygote is a man not because he has (or has not) aware of any, but because it is a step in the development of the human person. It is just a tiny man. Nothing else it will not grow, and both myself and you to; iśmy once a zygote. If someone killed her then, not now prowadzilibyśmy this discussion, because it deprived us to life.
| Quote: |
| But already returning directly to vitro, this method is not at all obligatory killing. At least it does not have to be. |
But in practice it is. Since in vitro fertilization of one cell gives very little chance of success, it fertilizes them a lot, and always chooses the most powerful places in the mother a few. And even then, only one of three treatment succeeds. If it came from one fertilized egg, the chances of success would be minimal.
But there is also a completely different aspect of this surgery. From the standpoint of Christian morality, any attempt to create life outside the natural act of the inside of marriage is immoral.
That's all citations, the entire topic can be found HERE .
PS. And finally, one more information. TPSA began to block some addresses, so how can anyone have a problem with the opening of our forum, namely the www.katolik.us can enter www.polonus.az.pl / forum Similarly, you can write instead www.hiob.us www.truckerhiob.blogspot.com instead www.polon.us - www.polonus.alleluja.pl